You can imagine my excitement and horror when I arrived at the office to find one of those red police cars slung across the street outside. What on Earth could they be doing? Was there a siege? Was a terrorist plot under way?
The police car was parked blocking a large truck. Perhaps the truck was full of explosives! Was the whole street about to go up? Being a nosey sort I glanced around to see what the officers were up to. Maybe they were inside the building across from my office defusing a bomb. Maybe they were involved in an armed stand-off with organised criminals.
No, they were giving the truck driver a parking ticket for being on a double yellow.
When I was travelling we thought it was hilarious to see guards/policemen armed with guns doing menial tasks like patrolling in the local bus station in America or Singapore. The overkill attitude really amused us.
And now you get it in London, too. I still think it’s worth laughing at, though. How often do you think armed police officers actually have good call to discharge their weapons? I’m guessing its extremely rare.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’d much prefer the most pressing issue to be parking infringements. I just thought the emergency parking and highly trained firearms officers were out of place for a parking issue!
Well, credit to them as at least they were doing something. Do you think they had to write up ‘this incident’ back at the station? Bet the truck driver got a shock!
I had a horrible strange dream last night based on the police and their incompetance – they have good marksmen but make rubbish decisions. I think the most effective way to commit suicide in this country (not that I would want to) is to wave a gun (table leg or licorice gun would do) and threaten someone after calling the police. You’d be dead in minutes.
I reckon I can guess what happened there – the same thing has happened to me.
Called to a suspect vehicle parked in a place it shouldn’t be, especially a potential vulnerable place.
Specialist unit sent, maybe DPG, maybe the local area car or AFO unit. Checked it – possibly searched it.
All OK.
However – the lorry is still parked where it shouldn’t be…
I’d love to know who “called it in” then, because as far as I could tell it was a plumbing supplies lorry delivering plumbing supplies for a hotel refurbishment. I know people are twitchy but…
Philipa; you say that the police marksmen make rubbish decisions.
Personally, if you wave a gun, then threaten someone after calling the police – yes, you will get shot. That is nothing to do with good marksmen and rubbish decisions, nor incompentence. That makes perfect sense, and is why we have firearms officers.
You also think it’s the most effective way to do it in “this country.” I think you’ll find that the UK has a LOT less firearms officers on duty, and most are much more highly trained than their counterparts in the rest of the world who do it as part of their standard training. There are also a huge amount of firearms calls in the UK, about twenty five thousand every year in the Met alone. And from those, the amount of weapons discharged is in the single figures. The amount of people killed I think averages out at just under one person a year over the past decade or so.
We do a lot wrong in the Police. Lots of beaurocracy, repetition of almost senseless paperwork, a targets and detections culture, a lack of manpower on the streets, concentrating on appearing to fight crime rather than gearing the organisation to actually fighting it… all of these are complaints that are sometimes genuine and accurate.
But I’d say that as a whole our firearms officers are among the best in the world. This is something echoed by many firearms units, and in fact many officers and trainers from fully armed forces that have come over on exchanges, and in fact we are seen as training our “basic” firearms officers sometimes to the standard of training that SWAT teams and similar get in other countries. Our AFOs also need to have years of developed Policing before they can apply to be a firearms officer. Mistakes are made, and this will ALWAYS happen when you have a) any system that depends on human beings to make choices, and b) need to make life changing decisions in split second, quick time incidents where the officer on scene may be in risk of losing their life, not to mention the safety of their colleagues and members of public.
Sorry for the hijack, BE.
No, thank you for the insight.
I’ll turn “rant” mode off now then.
Yeah thanks for the insight ATNS. I do find it a bit hard to take that the armed police take stick for shooting people with real guns, or with guns that look real. What do people expect exactly? Case in point the lawyer who was shot after shooting his shotgun randomly a few years ago in the middle of Central London, where the media have been giving his faimly a very sympathetic hearing. Quite how they can claim that the police made a massive mistake by killing him when he exchanged fire with the police and shot at his neighbours is beyoned me, but shows a strong bias against armed police and their actions. I live in Brixton where the law of the jungle is a bit more apparent than to those in the middle classes of Fulham, and the reality is that without them, the criminals would rule the roost (well, a lot more than they do already anyway).
The plod on duty (a long-serving and sensible chap) at Embankment Gate/MoD when I was arrested said that on the whole it’s the young officers who want to shoot things that are given guns. Apart from JCdeM (and my annoyance is more at the press and the inquiry) I am not concerned by UK armed police, but what this gentleman said was a little disturbing.
Ted – just imagine what Brixton would be like if the police weren’t there – doesn’t bear thinking about! I am a fairly confident and experienced city dweller but sometimes Brixton really makes me nervous.
Calfy – that is always going to be true, isn’t it? The more “mature” officers who just want a quiet life aren’t going to ask to be transferred to the armed divisions are they? I think it’s pretty tough to get in though – no matter how much someone might want a gun so he/she can shoot things up it isn’t as simple as just asking for it.
‘Area Trace No Search’ -
Philipa; you say that the police marksmen make rubbish decisions.
No I didn’t. I wish people would attack me for the things I DO write rather than what they think I say, one only has to read. What I did say was:
“I had a horrible strange dream last night based on the police and their incompetance – they have good marksmen but make rubbish decisions.”
That means that IMHO the police genrally, as a body, have good marksmen but the police generally, as a body, make rubbish decisions. It does NOT mean that police marksmen specifically make rubbish decisions.
Personally, if you wave a gun, then threaten someone after calling the police – yes, you will get shot. That is nothing to do with good marksmen and rubbish decisions, nor incompentence. That makes perfect sense, and is why we have firearms officers.
No it does NOT make perfect sense as not everyone waving a gun around should be simply shot. That’s just stupid and leads to mistakes. There are other things that should be tried based on the circumstances. But that would require independant thought and some police experience, something not encouraged today I believe. That ‘gun’ may in fact be a chair leg or a piece of licorice or indeed simply a brazilian student wondering why TF people are chasing him. He ended up dead though didn’t he?
Yeah right, just look as if you’re ticking the very naughty box and get shot in this country, whether you are or not can be lost in paperwork afterwards. Don’t tell me, Trigger-happy, you’re a serving police officer. Well learn to read, you should be able to do that by now or have you been polishing your weapon?
Oh, Trigger, if you take an overdose and are found you are forcibly taken to hospital and forcibly kept alive if possible, whatever your own thoughts on the matter. But one phone call to the police and hey presto! You don’t even need a gun. Read this, stupid.
Unfortunately police often misunderstand what is said to them, Philipa.
‘Rubbish decisions’ will always result from actioning error.
Philipa – ATNS did not say “waving a gun around” he said “threatening” – there is quite a difference there. The armed officers don’t just wade in literally guns blazing. Not in the UK anyway. As for “police experience” I think you will find that only already experienced officers can apply to join an armed unit. The best thing about “this country” is that when mistakes do happen (and they do) we have a process to find out what went wrong and try and make sure it doesn’t happen again. Compare that to some countries where deaths at the hands of police are so common as to not be worth mentioning. Where would you rather live?
Doctor Melvin – that is because they are all Freemasons, non?
Blue – “threatening” is NOT walking down the road carrying a table leg but the man was still shot. Dead. By police officers who got away with it. The “process” to find out what happened was a crock of shit and no-one made sure it didn’t happen again because the policemen who did it got away with it. I mentioned waving a gun around in my first comment, the comment ATNS was referring to. And that’s all you have to do, the gun doesn’t have to be loaded and hey, it doesn’t even have to be a gun, you could be a Brazilian student with a rucsac. What is the police’s definition of “threatening”? Carrying furniture in a manner likely to cause death by firing squad?
Where would I rather live? Not in this police state I can tell you. If I could afford it I would leave these shores tommorow.
Philipa, your views are quite literally the definition as to why firearms Officers are a total breed apart, they do the work voluntarily, with no extra pay or recognition. They know what will happen to them if they have to pull the trigger (right or wrong) and know they must face and just take ill-thought criticism from people who have had the luxury of never having to face a violent criminal intent on murdering you, because they do it for you to allow you that luxury. You are lucky that you do not have that experience, but as a result, you quite obviously are not party to all the facts, and as such are drawing skewed judgements on limited information. I know the incidents you speak of well (but before you ask I was not part of them). So explain to me what your judgement would have been had a brazilian lad ended up blowing the train apart and killing innocent people? Because that’s what those firearms officers believed was going to happen, but still went down there, would you have? Do you even know just how much high explosive would be needed to cause the carnage seen on 7/7? One block the size of a packet of cigarettes. What would your judgement have been, having been told catagorically that a violent drunk man had a banned and extremely deadly large calibre gun, went on to murder a young family in a botched shop robbery becuase it was ‘just a table leg’ in a bin liner? You probably didn’t know that even the prosecuting lawyer took your view, and embarrassingly picked up the wrong exhibit. In trying to prove the defence, the defence borrowed a decommissioned version of said firearm, and put it in a bin liner. The prosecuting barrister trying to be clever picked up what he thought was the table leg to confront the officer asking him how he could possibly mistake it for a firearm, only to be informed the item he was holding, was in fact the firearm. So you tell me Philipa, and you now have 1/4 of a second to read and react, what would you have done? Talk to him? You’re dead… Challenge him?… You’re dead… Wrestle him to the floor?…You’re dead. You have the right to dislike the Police, fine, but don’t take for granted that they are the best in the world at what they do, even other countries want our Officers, if you don’t like it, well maybe you could go argue the toss with a Somalian Officer, or maybe the Iranian secret police? perhaps the Zimbabwian Police would be sympathetic? They might be able to realign your perspective…Soap box complete.
“Doctor Melvin – that is because they are all Freemasons, non?”
Au contraire; it is because they are all stupid.
Philipa I’m afraid that you are reading into Area’s comments what you want to read. He did not say that he thought it was OK to shoot people carrying a table leg. I don’t think many police officers would pretend that that incident or JCdM were anything other than tragic calamitous mistakes. I think you are assuming that armed police are all trigger-happy morons but I suspect that is not the case. We certainly do not live in a police state. There are many things which are unpleasant about the way this country runs (if there weren’t I wouldn’t be blogging!) and the police do have more powers than I would wish but that does not mean that there is no law. We are still ruled by law and the law is set (ultimately) by Parliament. Even in civilised countries like France and Germany there would be considerably less outcry about incidents such as the ones you mention above.
Doctor Melvin – I realise you are just trying to get a rise out of people by making wildly ridiculous statements but for someone who claims to be intelligent you can make some pretty stupid comments. Have you met “all” police officers?
I happen to have met quite a few including – I am proud to say – Mr No Search. I have not met a police officer who is incapable of entering into a decent discussion about these kind of issues. Officers I have met are much less likely to take black/white stances and carry personal baggage into an argument about sensitive topics than many other people. I would trust Mr No Search with a gun much more happily than I would trust you with a vote in a marginal constituency.
Sacré bleu, where are your customary obscenities and anatomically impossible suggestions for those with contrary values, Monsieur?
My occasional chuckle at your romantic self image and intellectual pretence may be solitary on this blog but I do offer my apologies for carelessly allowing sufficient clues to draw your suspicion. Perhaps one day you will be bright enough to secure a working position amongst those you profess to admire.
You are right, I do admire those who go out there and put themselves in risky situations on our streets. I notice you do not answer my point which was to ask whether you were in a position to state that they are “all” stupid. Are you?
I don’t know what makes you think that it is terribly clever to go around the blogs telling the authors that they are thick. Do you realise how ridiculous that makes you look? If they are so boring then why do you waste your time? Why don’t you write your own superior one? I found your blog once before, if you recall, and it had once pointless post. Why don’t you put the world to rights instead of telling everyone how wrong they are?
Unless you have something interesting to say please don’t come back.
Blue: No I don’t. And ditto.
I would trust Mr No Search with a gun much more happily than I would trust you with a vote in a marginal constituency.
Gee thanks, pardon me for commenting here.
P, sorry but you are doing it again. That comment was directed at Doctor Melvin.
Just belatedly read the comment by Tappet.
I’ve also got a little knowledge of both incidents. Regardless of this, I think that many coppers do learn a skill that Blue Eyes mentioned. Yes, we have numerous negative faults, but we are also very good at approaching an argument or discussion leaving as much emotion behind as possible and without the ‘black and white’ image that some people have of the Police.
In the UK, unlike many Western Countries, we have the power of ‘discretion.’ When I was first training, I was taught that this was our most important power, and in fact I still think that rings true. With the power of discretion (which is used daily, on multiple occasions by every front line officer) comes the reality of the fact that things are not black and white.
Phillipa, I genuinely joined this little chat because I thought people wanted to discuss the police. I’m quite happy to slag us off when we do wrong, and if you pay even casual attention to my blog you will see this. But you seem to have turned this into more of an occasion to slag off a willing copper. I have no particular issue with that, I put myself in the way of that voluntarily by commenting here. But for someone who at least shows the impression of being eager to engage in discourse, it’s sad to see that in fact you appear to be simply using this as a platform to air your already entrenched views and use terms like: “Don’t tell me, Trigger-happy, you’re a serving police officer. Well learn to read, you should be able to do that by now or have you been polishing your weapon?
Oh, Trigger, if you take an overdose and are found you are forcibly taken to hospital and forcibly kept alive if possible, whatever your own thoughts on the matter. But one phone call to the police and hey presto! You don’t even need a gun. Read this, stupid.”
Philippa, this is an emotive subject. Any situation where a person’s life can be taken is hugely emotive. But the best way to approach this (and other) emotive subjects is as objectively as possible, surely? This way, when the subjective on the ground decision is made with whatever outcome, people can genuinely say that it has been thought through calmly.
As a final aside, I’d draw your attention to teh figures about amount of firearms calls vs amount of firearms actually fired by the Met. This does not paint a picture of trigger happy young idiots shooting and “getting away with it.” To me, this shows that restraint is used consistently and that in fact it is something that we do very well, and constantly strive to improve.
I’d be interested to know how the figures match up of people killed by Police marksmen, and
Police Officers killed in the execution of their duty.